Post-Cabinet Press Conference: Monday, 7 April 2025

All set? Well, kia ora and good afternoon, everyone. Today is truly a landmark day for the coalition Government and the New Zealand Defence Force as we announce a significant step change in our defence spending and also our capability. Before I would start, I just do want to acknowledge the tireless work of Minister Collins and the unwavering support of our coalition partners, New Zealand First and Act, in advancing this plan. New Zealand First, of course, previously drove the procurement of our new P-8A and Hercules aircraft, and I appreciate that both partners, like National, support today's announcement, as well as continuing commitment to increase funding as our economy strengthens.

New Zealand and our allies and our partners across the world are no longer in a benign environment. The past few months have reinforced that tectonic shifts are unfolding in the global exercise of power, economic leverage, and also strategic influence. Old assumptions are being up-ended and rules are giving way to power, as I say, and we must be clear-eyed in recognising the risk of conflict in our wider region has risen and we have to do our part internationally and domestically.

I've been very clear that my primary focus is the economic performance of this country. However, there can be no prosperity without security, and defence is one vital component of that picture. This Government has set a high ambition for New Zealand's external engagement agendas. We are delivering a more energetic approach to international engagement and increased contributions to collective security efforts globally. We also have a responsibility to resource and equip our Defence Force to ensure that we can continue to defend our national interests, whether in our near region, in defence of the realm, in the South Pacific, in our alliance with Australia, or in support of collective security efforts with our partners. This plan seeks to strengthen interoperability with Australia in both our people and our assets.

And that's why we're releasing a multi-billion dollar plan for a modern, combat-capable New Zealand Defence Force, lifting defence expenditure to 2 percent of GDP over the next eight years. Over the next four years, we have planned commitments totalling $12 billion, which includes $9 billion of new spending. This is a significant financial investment and it represents the floor, not the ceiling.

This plan is not just about the Defence Force. It's fundamentally about our national security and our economic prosperity. I want to give our New Zealand businesses and our talented Kiwis more opportunities to support defence and to help grow our economy as well. I am confident in the defence leadership team and their commitment to New Zealand's security and prosperity, and their laser focus on the delivery of this plan. On that note, I'll hand over to Defence Minister Judith Collins to step us through some more of the detail.

Thank you very much, Prime Minister. I'm proud to share with you today this very comprehensive and very necessary Defence Capability Plan. For too long, the people we rely on when times are tough have been at the mercy of stop-start investment, and this boom-and-bust cycle must stop. Defence is not something that can be mothballed until we need it, because when the chips are down, you need a force that is ready and equipped to do whatever it—is asked of it, and it needs to be able to do it immediately.

So distance certainly is no longer any protection for New Zealand, not when we have an intercontinental ballistic missile launched in the South Pacific, not when ships with enormous strike power come into our backyard. This reality requires us not only to work with others who share our values and interests to reduce the possibility of conflict, but also to prepare ourselves should the worst happen.

That is why, over the next 15 years, we will invest in: a focused and combat-capable Navy with a mixture of combat, patrol and multi-role ships; an Army that can operate independently, integrate with Australia, has improved strike capabilities and is fully networked; an Air Force that can operate globally with select combat capability and which provides situational awareness and intelligence; strengthened cyber and information capabilities to protect the New Zealand Defence Force's networks and systems, and provide defensive cyber, electronic and information warfare effects; a workforce with a physical and digital infrastructure that is fit for purpose for the modern Defence Force.

This plan isn't about choosing sides or beating the drums of war. It is about supporting our diplomatic efforts to maintain the international rules-based order that has largely prevailed since World War II. It is about working alongside those who share our vision. It is about lifting our ability to deter and to defend. And it is about making smart decisions for our future, because when missions are being launched and guns fired in situations that affect New Zealand's national interests, who do we ask to step up? And here at home, when the floodwaters are rising, who do we look to help? We ask the men and women of our Defence Force, and they do it every time without hesitation. And it is only right that they have the people, the equipment and support to do what we ask them to do, time and time again.

We need to have our eyes firmly on the horizon to secure our future prosperity and security because without national security, there is no economic security. We need our Defence Force to be increasingly combat-capable, interoperable with our partners, and able to act as a force multiplier with Australia. We know we need to rebuild the core of the NZDF so that we can fully utilise the ships, aircraft, vehicles and weapons we already have, while looking to what is needed in the future. This plan does that. It gets our NZDF out of the intensive care unit and not just growing but growing where we need it to go.

So our personnel deserve a serious plan that will serve them as they serve us. This is what we have delivered. The planned investments we are announcing will still need to go through robust business case processes—after all, purchasing modern military equipment is complex, risky, and we cannot afford to get it wrong—but make no mistake, Defence will work at pace to deliver.

Not all of these purchases will appear on the balance sheet this year or next. The Government is charting a path to sustained investment in New Zealand's defence, to get back on track after 35 years of underinvestment and to stay the course. From here we will crack on because in defence you set a plan, then you deliver. It's what our Defence Force does, and I thank them for it. Back to you, Prime Minister.

Well, thank you, Judith. Can I also just acknowledge Tony Davies, the Chief of Defence, and also Brook Barrington, the Secretary of Defence, and say thank you, gentlemen, for your hard work as well in bringing this plan to life as we go forward.

Can I just say a couple of things before we get into questions? The first is in the House this week we have the annual review debates for finance, transport, health, education and housing. Wednesday, of course, is a Members' day. On Thursday, we'll have the second reading of the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Bill.

Yesterday you will also have seen we released our action plan for Q2, which included 38 actions that the coalition Government will take in the next three months to grow the economy and to make life better for Kiwis. This includes introducing legislation to encourage international investment in this country and to ratify the New Zealand‒UAE trade deal. Both are hugely important for helping our businesses grow, to creating more jobs and lifting incomes. And we'll also take some further action to boost tourism and international education, and to push ahead on our 30-year National Infrastructure Plan to attract investment and give our construction sector long-term certainty.

And finally, before I take your questions, I just would like to acknowledge Claire Trevett, who will be leaving the press gallery this week, and of course this is her last post-Cabinet press conference, which she's probably looking forward to missing going forward. But I just want to say, Claire, thank you for being such a highly respected political journalist and a life member, obviously, of this gallery. You have kept Prime Ministers and MPs on their toes for 18 years, as well as shaping the careers of many political reporters in this room, and others that aren't. So just, Claire, I just wanted to acknowledge everything that you have achieved and that you have done for political journalism in this country, and we wish you all the very best for whatever's next for you. And with that, Claire, you may have the first question if you would like.

Right, who's first? Would you like to go, Claire, or would you like to defer to someone else? I'll come back. I'll go to Jamie first. I'll go to someone in Claire's shop, so Jamie?

Yes, we have. Yes, we have.

Yeah, I'll let Judith talk to that.

Well, we have—obviously, the decision in DCP19, 2019, was to have another frigate on top of where we'd go. Since then, we've had the uncrewed capabilities come on board, and some of those are being—the R&D work is being done in New Zealand. We have other capabilities we can, too. And of course, this is—as the Prime Minister said, this is a floor, not a ceiling, so every two years we will check in to see should we be adding to that capability. But we do need to replace the frigates. Right at the moment, we're looking at these other areas as well.

Yeah, thanks, Jamie. Look, the Manawanui's capability has—is able to be picked up by other parts of our Defence Force. So particularly our Navy has got three ships at the moment in something called care and custody, and one of the reasons that they're there is we don't have enough crew. So we don't need to do—have the Manawanui if we already have the capability, and we can certainly work around it. We can certainly deal with it.

Jamie, it would also be fair to say that pre the sinking of the Manawanui, you know, that was—that was also our plan as well.

Yeah.

No, we don't. What this is about is making sure we have a Defence Force that's actually representing New Zealand's national interests, and so that's our primary consideration. What is it that New Zealand is going to need to operate in this part of the world in order to advance our national interests? So that is the primary consideration. It's not targeted at any particular country per se, it's just recognising that we are also living very much in a much more—as we've talked before, you know, a much more geocompetitive, geostrategic environment, a more contested environment in the Pacific, as we've seen in recent months.

Well, they are good examples. I think all New Zealanders would acknowledge that, that actually they've seen events happen in the last, you know, six months, for example, that we haven't seen before. And that is illustrative of what we're talking about, which is that we actually are living in a much more contested part of the world.

But when you are designing a Defence Capability Plan and thinking about a spending track to lock into over the next 15 years, it's important that we are thinking first and foremost from New Zealand's perspective as to what we think the capabilities we need to develop and build will be, but also to stop the on/off again that we've seen and to actually lock into a defence spending track that actually we can review every two years formally, make sure that we can tweak it if we need to, but to make sure that we are—have got capability that's dealing with the environment we're in.

Sorry, I'll go to Jo Moir.

Well, thank you, Jo, I think it's a really reasonable question and that's why we're not getting everything on day one as well. So we've been very realistic about what we can procure. So we've also been working quite closely with the Australian Defence Force as well around procurement. So we know that when we work together, we can often get a benefit from that, as they do from us too. But it's—I think we are not worried about it. We are certainly always aware of the fact that sometimes it takes a long time to get capital, big capital items actually, you know, in New Zealand, but that's why we've done it over a particular period of time.

Well, I don't know that we'd say that.

No.

I actually think that there's a lot of our—the countries that we most associate with in defence are very welcoming of us stepping up and sharing some of the burden of defence. My experience has been they are wanting to help us to make sure that we are not at the back of the track. Just because we're a small buyer compared to many doesn't mean to say we're not significant.

Sorry, can I close that out? Jo, all I'd just say is that, you know, we are—we're acknowledging we're coming from a long way behind in terms of our own capability that has been, you know, run down under successive Governments. What we need to do is actually build some capability back and particularly personnel, and that's why we've got a 15-year, long-term view about this.

But I'm also with Judith. When we talk about words like interoperability, what that means is that we can tag on the back of one of our partners' procurement exercises and actually secure, you know, whether it's aircraft or other assets that we're going to need on the back of that. So, you know, I think what we've got here is a strategic plan and what we're trying to stop is the on/off, on/off, or—and lock into a spending track that we can all sign up for, acknowledging we've got some difficult times right now, but also build that capability over time.

I'll let the military—

I certainly don't cut anybody's pay. I'm a very generous employer. I don't think that is true at all, is it, CDF? No, CDF is indicating that is not correct.

Sorry, mate. Sorry, let's go.

There is.

Did you say Te Kaha?

Our naval assets will be refreshed, and our fleet, over this period of time. I don't know [Inaudible].

I got some very cruel looks from the Navy here. Te Kaha is up in the Middle East. They've been doing excellent work, haven't they?

Doing a good job at the moment.

But CDF, do you want to answer that one?

Chief of Defence Force: We're getting very good use out of Te Kaha and Te Mana presently. If you look at Te Kaha she's just been involved in monitoring Chinese ships which visited our region recently, she supported the Prime Minister's very successful visit to India as we strike up a new relationship, and now is off the coast of Oman, monitoring drug trafficking in that region. Those ships have just been—just come out of an upgrade which has upgraded their weapons and mission systems. But it is true that the ships themselves, if you go right down to the skeleton of the ship, they are pretty tired, now being 27—28 and 26 years old, respectively. They will have to be retired at some point and we have funding set aside to prolong those ships for as long as is possible, which should be, you know, around another six or seven years.

Okay, can I—sorry—

Sorry, what was the question?

Yeah. So, Claudette, what we're showing you is a Defence Capability Plan over the next 15 years. Each of those individual purchases come as a business case to Cabinet to be signed off on, and obviously there is a formal two-year check-in on the total defence plan. But, you know, there is a number of options for each of these, each of the assets and capabilities that we want to secure. If we want to look at maritime helicopters, for example, there will be a number of scenarios or options of suppliers that we can secure those helicopters from. What is important for us is to, where possible, to be as interoperable with Australia as possible so that we can actually activate together.

No.

No. Not at all. Okay, so, Sam.

Again, a good question. Well, the fact is, is that the plan has been approved today. I think that helps. But also the extra—you probably see that there's quite a focus on uncrewed and very high-tech systems, which New Zealand is able to actually supply to New Zealand and other countries. So we have—I think, too, is that there's nothing like some of the activity we've seen over the last year to focus everyone's minds on just how important it is. There have been—there have been changes along the way as we've been seeing what we can do, how we can do it and can we get the personnel in time, and the answer has to be yes. So it's been quite a long process but it's also been a learning curve for me and I think everyone involved in it.

Sorry, I'd just say, Sam, it's been important to get it right than done fast.

Yes.

And, you know, this is quite serious work. It's a really important strategic piece of work for New Zealand and so, as you can imagine, as you get into the detail of it, there's quite a lot of conversations we need to have around that. It's not something that we do irregularly. It's something we want to get the platform right, recognising that actually, you know, we've had defence on/off, on/off again. And we really wanted a long-term plan that actually gave us confidence the strategy was the right one and test that, and obviously also we want to lock in on a spending track that we could do as well. Those—they have taken a bit more time but I'd sooner get it right than faster.

Okay, guys, we're going to go through an order so can we go to Tom and then Jenna and then Thomas, and then I'll come to Jason?

Yeah, those are the sorts of issues that are normally part of a Budget and of course, as you know, we've got the Budget coming up next month, so—

Well, I never like to say. I've always found it very career—

Limiting.

—limiting to say what's in the Budget before it's actually announced. So let's just say I'm not—yeah, I'm still smiling.

And Tom, it's normal practice that, you know, what we call cost pressures for want of a better word—salaries, other things—that is actually, you know, conversations that are negotiated in each Budget.

Yes, one more.

Well, for instance, there are autonomous vehicles that can be— and I showed these off. Basically, we had our New Zealand defence industry show them off to the South Pacific Defence Ministers meeting late last year, including, for instance, uncrewed naval ships—I'd say RIBs, basically—which can swarm ships, do other things like that; drones that can surveil; uncrewed long-range surveillance; all these things. There's a lot of this capability in this country, and what we need to do is to keep New Zealand selling that equipment and that technology to countries of like minds and values, and at the same time start buying some ourselves.

Yes.

Yeah. So there's a lot of talk about, "What are the 757s for?" So last year, 65 percent of their work was Defence shifting people, equipment, all over the place. I mean, they were the ones in there when Nouméa had its issues. They were in Vanuatu. They go to Antarctica, maybe six times last year. These are constantly being used for defence. They're actually defence assets and so they are—it's really important for us to do that. And if we have an international trade mission and we want to take hundreds of people with us, it makes sense to have this capability. So it's like they ship—mostly, they're mostly flying—

Troop carriers.

—troops, and we need to be very aware of that.

Yeah, they look at our frigates as valuable. We need to understand too, as I've said before, we have three ships currently tied up because we don't have enough crew for them. So it's not not getting more frigates, it's like this is the plan at the moment, plus all these other things as well. We're a maritime nation. We have to be able to undertake our work as maritime surveillance, and then occasionally we need to actually action something from that.

I've always mentioned ANZUS. I wouldn't—what's the problem with that?

No, ANZUS is actually where the—we and Australia, under ANZUS, are allies. That's it. That's our one ally. So when we're talking about force multiplier or working with people, Australia is our closest friend, our neighbour, and I understand we're the only two countries anyone can think of next door to each other who have never actually fired a shot in anger at each other, except on the rugby field, but, yeah.

OK, we're going to go to Thomas.

No. What we're doing is just making sure that we can sequence the building of personnel, for example. There's no point us having assets in place if we haven't got personnel to actually operate them. That's been some of the challenges, as you've seen with some of the, you know, the period of time where we've lost people out of the defence forces. It's good to see attrition has halved, I think, from the highs that it once was. But, you know, it's just about us sequencing it. It's really very much—that's our focus.

Well, we can afford this. You know, this is—we know this is a big step up and a big commitment but in our current fiscal track we can afford this.

Yes.

A four-year period, yeah.

Yeah, you'll see that in the Budget as to how we've actually put the plan together. I'm not going to go into that now, but rest assured that we are fiscally and financially prudent as a Government and we're making sure that this is what we can afford for now.

We have a programme of work of ongoing daily practice here about making sure we get maximum value for money. That doesn't change. But when we look at what we want to do in defence spaces, you've seen us increase—

Sure.

But rest assured, you'll see that all in the Budget when it comes out.

Yes, Luke.

I'm not going to go into it. We will talk more about it in the Budget. But you're going to see this—we don't commit to this plan and we don't commit to this spending track if we can't afford it and we can't do it.

No, that's what we're trying—that's the behaviour we're trying to stop, because the reason we have ended up in a degraded position of where we need to be is exactly that behaviour that we're trying to stop. So we want—we've had—we've had the Treasury, we've had Defence working very closely on this together as one team. They've done an exceptionally good job of working together on it. In the past that hasn't always been the case. But what we're talking about today we are committed to doing, and what we want to do is have two-year check-ins so as the economy improves, as we think we do better, if there's more that we can do, we will look to do that and look to strengthen the plan.

Well it's what—yes, it's very much what our track is and what our spending is. That's why I've been quite—

Well, what I said to you a year ago was that—when we kicked off this work I wanted not to start with the spending, I actually wanted to start with the capability because I want to make sure that we've got a good strategy and a good plan that actually is robust and is viable for the 15-year period, and then we can tip money, good money, into a good strategy to get good results. So for us, we've started with the capability. But clearly, obviously, we are hitting 2 percent of GDP. I know, you know, that's one way people look at the spend. What we're more interested in is making sure we build out a defence force that New Zealand—is actually going to work for New Zealand going forward and this does that plan.

Sorry, I'll go to Jack and then I'll come back to Thomas.

Oh, look, in my previous conversations with the Leader of the Opposition in Australia we've talked about the need for interoperability. These are things that are not political between the parties in Australia and I would hope in New Zealand as well.

We know, having obviously worked closely with Defence Minister Marles, Prime Minister Albanese and Foreign Minister Penny Wong, they've known the sense of direction we're going in. We've talked to them about making sure we can be the force multiplier and the interoperability and so we've been very transparent with them, as you would expect. But I don't see any difference in—whatever the decisions are of the Australian people and who they elect as their leader and Government, I think you're going to find a lot of, you know, bipartisanship and a commonality.

I have spoken today with the Minister of Defence, Richard Marles, and briefed him on our Defence Capability Plan. So, in a nutshell, he congratulated us on getting this through. He's also very aware that the Australian Defence Force has been involved helping us, particularly when it comes to procurement and other matters, so I think the point is that our partners are very happy that we're going in the right way, the right direction.

Carrying our weight.

Yes.

Thomas. Sorry, [Inaudible].

Correct.

Again, we're not going to go into the specifics. We'll deal with each business case as it comes along. Obviously, we're aware of Australia wanting to replace frigates as well. It would make sense of us—for us to have that conversation and to make sure that we are, where possible, doing joint procurement or are aligned in that.

No, a lot of it is actually recognising that we actually need to build personnel and we actually need to have capability before assets start arriving, that we've actually got people that can actually operate those assets. And Judith's made that point pretty strongly with our team, that, you know, we've got to acknowledge where we're starting from. We've got to build and get some people into the Defence Force. So we're seeing some good interest in recruitment and we're very comfortable with where that's going to go to. But part of it is actually building up our numbers so that as we then lay in the capital investments, that when they come here, we're ready to operate them and we can use them. Richard.

Oh, well, that's a load of rubbish. We are acting in New Zealand's national interest. We have our own independent foreign policy. We make our own assessment of that. There are relationships and partners that we have that are longstanding. There is also, as you know, lots of mini lateral groupings across the Indo-Pacific region of a defence nature and also of an economic nature, and so we partner with like-minded friends and partners, as you would expect. We have one ally, which is Australia. We are wanting to make sure that, where possible, we can maximise the synergies of our two countries' Defence Forces and do the very best we can representing our part of the world and so, you know, that's what we're talking about here.

But New Zealand has its own independent foreign policy. We act in New Zealand's national interests and it's in our national interests. If we want prosperity in this region and in this country, we also have to have security, and that's been brought home big time, as I've talked about, over the last year and a half. Just look at a conflict like Ukraine causing economic pain and suffering in Western Europe, in Africa, in Asia, by virtue of the flow-on effects of that conflict. So we want to be part of these arrangements. We have strong set of values but it's important that values are backed up with actions and that we are carrying our load and we are playing our part, and that's what this is about.

Well, we still have a longstanding relationship with the US that we will continue to be partners in. You know, we have partnerships around intelligence, around Five Eyes, we have, you know, partnerships around economic interests, we have partnerships in defence sense and they clearly—you know, the US is a very important partner for us.

We have never—our relationship and our alliance with Australia is actually from ANZUS, so you can't just—I mean, the issue has always been around the nuclear ships and the US.

But there is no change, Jenna, to our position on that whatsoever.

This doesn't change that at all. The reason we're an ally with Australia and they are an ally with us is because of ANZUS. So I think people need to get over themselves and realise that we're not playing tiddlywinks here, it's a tough world out there and the Australians are our best friends and we need to get on with it.

But I reassure you, Jenna, there is no change whatsoever to our nuclear policy. That is not for changing and everyone understands that very clearly.

Yes.

Not now. We've got it sorted.

Well, I want to say a very big shout-out to Judith and to the defence team because I think we reached a peak. Judith, I remember 15.5 percent not that long ago.

17.7 in the Navy, wasn't it, at one stage?

Yeah, 17 percent in one of the—in the forces.

What's it now? [Inaudible].

So you've seen very high levels of attrition. That happens when we ask people to do security work for MIQ, and as a result we lost a lot of staff at that point in time. In the latest numbers we've more than halved it. I think it's sitting just over 7 percent. So, you know, we— and talking to the Chief of Defence about recruitment and how is it looking, what we are seeing is huge interest. And I think if you're a young person—and we, Judith and I get to have the pleasure of meeting these young people. I met a number of them up in India just recently. They're incredible people. They want to protect and serve New Zealand. They see it as a really attractive career pathway for themselves to be able to see the world, to get a set of skills, and it's great that we're seeing that in recruitment efforts right now. And I think they need to know that there is a Government that has a plan around defence. It's a long-term plan. It's not on, it's not off. It's consistent, it's about building capability and expertise, and it's about consistent investment.

Absolutely.

I've spoken to some of the Pacific leaders today, including Defence Ministers, and they are delighted with our commitment. So it's not only—when you talk about climate change, what you're really talking about from their point of view are the enormous—

Disaster.

—disaster events that they have experienced, just as, by the way, we have experienced, but often greater for them. But they're also really worried about the unregulated and illegal fishing that goes on in their territories.

Drugs.

They're also very concerned about drone use and unfriendly drones. They're also very worried about transnational crime, particularly drug dealing, in terms of massive amounts of drugs going across the Pacific, and they rely on us, the New Zealand Defence Force, to be there to help them. And so that's not only the disaster relief, it's all these other things too. They are absolutely delighted that we're stepping up, we're sharing the burden, we're pulling our weight.

No. I'd just be really careful about mixing the drinks there. We're looking at a defence capability. That defence capability helps the Pacific in times of natural disasters. It's also to make sure that we can actually hold our end up in a conflict situation as well.

But aid conversations, we're well aware of, you know, the US aid implications throughout the Pacific. We have made those points incredibly strongly in Winston's recent visit to Washington DC and other conversations as well. We'll have to see where the US ultimately gets to. But of course we remain committed in a foreign affairs conversation. You'll see there will be a discussion in the budget as well.

We see them as two separate tasks. They are related, but they are separate tasks. The Defence Capability Plan stands on its own. We have a separate conversation around making sure we have the right aid budget, that we're actually doing everything we can and making every dollar work really hard to actually advance particularly infrastructure upgrades, which is what we spend a lot of our time from the Pacific, as you know, and we will deal with that conversation as part of Budget.

Sorry, can we just close out the defence conversation and then I'll [Inaudible].

We don't see it that way. We want to improve the lethality of our defence force, no doubt about it. We want to improve the interoperability and the force multiplier with Australia.

But we can do both and actually it's our defence forces that when there are earthquakes in the Pacific and across the region, that are in there with our assets and our kit. But equally, we also need to make sure we have defence and deterrent capabilities as well.

No.

No, I don't think that I will be. It's a space symposium. But I'm sure that the US will be no doubt briefed that New Zealand is, like many other countries, stepping up and sharing the burden, and just getting on and being a really good player in the world. So, look, I think it's really more about space. But I would say, of course, a big shout-out to the space sector.

We don't take our defence advice from the PSA, just for the record there, Sam.

Well, the Defence Force are capable people. The Chief of Defence Force has got that in hand. And I'd say, too, is that despite all the talk from the PSA, it was around 80 people, civilians, not 300-and-something that they were talking about.

I think it's also really important to understand that we are not—as I keep saying, this is really serious work and our Defence Force needs to be very focused on those outcomes that we need. The Chief of Defence Force has to be allowed to get on and do his job of getting the staff he wants in the places he wants them.

Yes, so let's—we'll wrap up the defence conversation now, I'll let Judith and—

Thank you very much. Thanks, Prime Minister.

—Jim go and get on with the defence plan. Thank you. Go to work.

Chief of Defence Force: Thank you, Prime Minister.

Yeah, I am. I mean, this is why we don't think tariffs and trade wars are good for the global economy. This is what you're seeing. You're seeing markets in turmoil across the world. Why is that? Because, fundamentally, trade wars and tariffs lead to inflation. They lead to slowing downs of economies all around the world. And so, yeah, we are very concerned about that. What I would say to you is that, you know, New Zealand has—you know, we have a unique set of products and services we sell the world. We've been out there hustling in the world, wanting to work with people who value free trade like we do as well, and we'll continue to do so.

Well, it's a bit hard to say because that's a determination by the Americans as to who they think has been talking to them or not. What I can reassure you about is obviously at an officials level, we have been engaging with the Americans since the announcement.

Yeah, I'm not sure about the question but I think I get the gist of it. I mean, what I'd say to you is that we are not going to put in place reciprocal tariffs because we think that only hurts New Zealand workers, seriously. But equally, you know, you are right in the sense of we are free traders. We think that has been good for New Zealand and good for the world. We want to see the freedom of movement of goods and services all around the world. We don't support tariffs. We don't support trade wars. We don't think that's a good outcome. And so we continue to work with countries like Singapore, like you've seen us in Vietnam, like you've seen us in the UAE and the GCC, recently in India as well, and we'll continue to work really hard across the region to advance our own interests economically.

I won't be. I won't actually—I'm somewhere else at that time, but I'm sure I'll be available for media to talk to on the day.

Well, we've had a very strong position as to why we don't support the Bill. Obviously, we've had a coalition commitment to have a good aeration of the debate and the discussion. There are strong views, as you know, on both sides of it. We have been of the view that we don't think rewriting 184 years' worth of discourse and debate is actually the simple—it's a simplistic way of doing it, not a simple way of doing it. We know that there are challenges and you've seen us where there have been—around a separate Māori health authority, Māori wards, Three Waters—where we actually work with those issues and take up each of those issues individually and work out what the right pathway through it is. But, you know, that's been our long-held position, which I think we've expressed pretty consistently.

Sorry, can you just—I want to go to some other questions, Claudette, because you've had some.

Look, I mean I spoke to Shane yesterday and passed on, you know, our thoughts to Dot and to him, and we talked about it again this morning as well. You know, what we're trying to balance here in New Zealand—and it's, you know, it's interesting. Just in the 16 months in this job, having been out overseas—and some of you have come with me—you'll see huge closeting and protection of MPs, Ministers and Prime Ministers and Presidents, and as a result, they're not accessible and not available to the public. As I move around, it's quite obvious they're not used to seeing Prime Ministers or MPs as a result.

We want to continue to keep our New Zealand way of being, which is that actually I do want to go to the Dua Lipa concert on Friday, and I want to know that I can actually do that as a private citizen, but also engage with people along the way, who are always pretty generous with me and pretty good to me. And, you know, that's important, I think, to be able to have the availability and accessibility that we have with our politicians, which is unique, I'd just put it to you compared to what I see in other countries.

Equally, we do have some really serious threats, and I don't talk about them personally. It's a position I've had from the beginning. And we're trying to find that balance always of making sure we're protected but, equally, we're accessible and I think, you know, that's incumbent. So when we see an event like we saw at the Auckland airport, you know, it's utterly unacceptable and obviously it's now before Police.

Claudette, I don't think there's ever been that interpretation of—

I'm sorry but you've got your wires crossed. The reality is go look at our coalition agreement. We said we'd support it at first reading but we'd vote it down at second reading. That's what we're doing.

Sorry, Laura.

Look, it's just a function of schedule. You know, the reality is I've got to get on and run this country. I want this debate brought to a close. I won't be practically here in the afternoon when it comes to the House on Thursday, and I'm sure I will comment to it in a stand-up or with media engagements, absolutely, and I'm happy to talk about it, as I have been consistently. My position is pretty clear and been well-known for some time. I've consistently articulated. But, you know, we will have other members, obviously, talking to the Bill in the House. But for myself, I won't be, but I'm very happy to talk to it on media on the day if that's helpful to you.

It's not that. It genuinely is that the Bill is coming up on Thursday. I'm not here on Thursdays, as you know. I'm doing other things. They're important things. It's important that I can do that. I'm happy to talk to the Bill, no problem. I'm sure you will be there as media.

This week we have Members' day, we've got a programme and so that's the day that it's going to, and frankly it's more important that it comes to the House and it's voted down, from my point of view, than me having to be there or not.

No, that's not the case. It's just that I'm not here.

Well, I'm sure, Sean, if you get that very polite, nicely requested request into my team, I'm sure they'll give it proper consideration.

It's good to see you here today.

Yes.

Well, I mean, nothing changes for us. We continue to make the case to the US and to anyone else that wants to listen about why we think tariffs and trade wars are bad things and what damage that does to the economy. You’re literally seeing it before your eyes because the US consumer is going to get loaded up with that cost. I’m telling you right now, you’re seeing it immediately, where consumers will stop wanting to make purchases and as a result, the economy will come to a grinding halt in the US. You’re seeing it, and that’s why you’re seeing the turmoil on the markets as companies make those assessments as to what will happen with consumer demand, what will happen with inflation and therefore what happens with their earnings outlooks, which ultimately determines their share price.

So, you know, that is a case in point. We will continue to advocate very, very strongly because this is a country, you know, alongside Singapore, Brunei, and Chile, commenced and kicked off the TPP, which became the CPTPP, obviously. We are free traders. We think that’s a critical part of New Zealand’s success. We’ll continue to advocate for it. But in all of my conversations with other leaders, which I have had and continue to have, we make that case.

And there are countries that think similarly to us and we continue to deepen those relationships. Think about what we’re trying to do with Singapore and going to the next level in that relationship. You saw us in Vietnam and what we were doing in order to realise growth and opportunity and partnership there—the reason we went to the UAE and to the GCC and why we went to India just recently as well. So, you know, all of—you know, people are in no doubt about our position. Is there opportunity for us to do more with people that think similarly to us? Absolutely. But at the moment, I want to do and sell as much product as I can to anyone and everyone around the world, and that’s why we’re hustling out there, doing it.

Look, it is really concerning for New Zealand KiwiSaver investors and for all investors, frankly, you know. But I’d just say to people, let’s focus on the long term.

I was very struck from a New Zealand point of view when the tariffs were announced. I had spoken the night before and that day with a number of our exporters going into the US. You know, this is a big market of 370 million people. This is a market where New Zealand is a small country and with—small companies, essentially, in a big economy, actually just need to find the wealth and the seams of gold that exist there with different consumers and different retailers, premium products, that actually infill a lot of demand in the US, and they still see opportunity in spite of the tariffs. Now, that doesn’t make it right. We will continue to advocate, as I said, very strongly and make the case for New Zealand as to why tariffs and trade wars are not good for the world.

Well, what I can reassure them is that we were doing everything we can as a Government to make sure that New Zealand businesses have more opportunities to sell more of their goods and services to the world, and in turn to grow, so they can bring that money back home here to New Zealand. We know one in four of our jobs in this country are tied to trade. We know that the companies that actually trade internationally pay up to 7 percent higher wages and salaries than those that don’t, that export, and we want to continue to double the value of our exports.

So we will keep going. We have a unique product mix. We are well positioned relative to other countries. We have products that are in huge demand from middle classes across the Indo-Pacific. And that’s why we’ve been full-court press on making sure that over the last 16 months that we can build those relationships out with more countries.

Big questions, Jason. I appreciate it.

No, I didn’t, actually. No, I didn’t. But I’m a big fan. I think song of the year last year was Chris Stapleton and Dua Lipa. That combination they did at the CMA Awards was outstanding.

Look, there’s no doubt about it. We are living in times, as I’ve said before, where rules are giving way to power, where economy is giving way to security, and where efficiency is giving way to resilience, and I mean that as the macro themes in the environment that we’re in. And we may wish a whole different set of cards were our cards to play, but it’s the same for everybody. And so the question is: relative to the other 195 countries on Earth, how are we going to play the best hand that we have in order to set ourselves up for a great future?

And I believe that we have an awesome future and I believe that we can out-compete anybody, and I think that our relative position and our relative competitiveness is actually in good heart. I’ve seen exporters that are agile, that are resilient, that have had to operate without tariffs protecting them for now many years, many decades. Some of you have been offshore and seen great companies that export around the world and they’re doing exceptionally well. And so we’re going to do everything we can to back our exporters so that they can get ahead and New Zealanders can get ahead.

With that I’ve got one last question, Mark, and then I’ve got to go to a committee meeting.

Yeah, look, I am quite comfortable. Just so you know, what I have done since I’ve become Prime Minister is I’ve asked the Cabinet Office to actually regularly, on a fixed schedule, sit down with every single Cabinet Minister inside and outside of Cabinet, and actually report more regularly where there are perceived or real conflicts and how we are actually managing it. Not all of it gets reported for different reasons, for privacy reasons, but you can be reassured that I’m very comfortable with how the Cabinet Office are engaging with my Ministers and in that case I’m comfortable with how that conflict is being managed.

OK team, thank you very much. Have a good evening.